ok i was just in a tourny with 2 or 3 thousand players. got down to 63 players left and i am 10th with 200k. the blinds are very small like 600 1200. I get QQ. 2nd to act is small stack and he raises but has enough to get away. next player has me covered and just shoves for over 200k. i am on button and it folds around.
since i know that i have the shover covered since he would not shove AA or KK i call only scare is Ak and i am better than a flip against it. he turns AQ off and hits a flush on river. was this the right call or should i have waited and not risked the chips.
*edit*
lol changed my mind with more experience, see latter posts for my opinion on this.
I would of folded. QQ have never been kind to me.
If you where needing to double (short stacked) up then sure it a no brainer call. But to risk all your stack in 10th no way.
This is not a turbo sng game, you have plenty of time to keep building the stack without risking ALL your chips on bit better then a flip.
Steve
i think i agree with alex. I will never win tournys folding when you think you a 70 30 favorite. if I won the hand i would would have been 1st with about a 100k buffer.
thanks for all the feed back. now that i have had time to cool off i think i played it right. if i fold i might still go out before any real money. only way to make big money is top 5 so i think you have to call when you think your way ahead. but i think either play would be ok.
fold
I agree his shove does not look like Aces or Kings but it's got AK written all over it and he wants to isolate the short stack.
So basically you are looking at flipping for your tournament life when you had a very solid stack.
The fact that you were actually 70 30 doesn't matter that just makes his play bad. At the end of the day u didnt know that pre so I'd have folded. Unlucky to lose the hand though.
I think it depends on your reads on the player, if he has been open shoving with marginal hands, it might be +ev to call here, but you have to take ICM into consideration
hey guys
i think u need to take into consideration the buy in also.
cuz we all know what a donky breeding ground a low buy in tourney is.
for instance a week ago i was playing a 5 dollar tourney on stars, 4000 entrants and 100 were left. me and my opponent had an average stack bout 30 BB deep . he limped early position i raised with my bullets he calls... flop... QcKc7h he checks i bet the pot by moving in. he insta calls with AsJs and busts me of couse 
)
my point....
if it was a 5 or 10 dollar buy-in its an insta call, I estimate 80% of the time u will be against a smaller pocket or a rotten ace , thus making u a big favourite.
22 dollar buy is borderline for me ...
but as always ....know your opponent
For me it would depend on payout jumps and the player. If you were a long ways off from any significant jump in the payout and you gave him a range of say AQ+ and maybe 88+ (although that seems a bit wide) I'd take it. Trouble is a good player from early that is deep isn't shoving that wide with another big stack behind him. Folding is fine though too and then just using your big stack to steal blinds. It really depends on what you think his shoving range is and whether or not it's worth if for you to wait for a pay jump.
Few things here...
Reads on the player are fine in SNGs but really hard in MTTs when every is moving tables all the time. And obviously you are calling if he is constantly shoving.
And I do agree with the standards regarding buy in but you have to remember how deep this is. Because it's final 60 odd people out of a few thousand even an idiot with no concept of relative stacks etc wouldn't be pushing with with a small pair or Ax (although we know it happens)
the best thing I've learnt is that if you can outplay people in other spots then do u really need to risk your tourny on what could well be a coin flip. Pick the times when you are dictating the action. We all know the simple fact that you'd rather be a raiser than a caller. Most times I call a shove when I'm thinking I probably shouldn't I'm normally right... Even the few times I win I'm thinking I probably shouldn't have..
Had a good Bad Beat on Saturday $3 Tourney.
17 left and getting very close to the final table.
With around 400,000 chips (around 7thfrom memory) I hit the premium hand AA and early in position I did the usually 3x BB raise and got a all-in. I was never folding that.
The opponent did have slightly more chips and he turned up pocket 10's.
Of cause he flopped a 10 and I lost finishing 15th (lucky 15th paid $43 with $25 for 16th).
At that stage I still had to get more chips to keep progressing and do well in the final table and who would ever lay down pocket Aces.
Hopefully next time luck will be on my side.
Steve
you got ur chips ni ahead. With AA u want to get it all in pre if possible but don't like it against more than 1 caller. ul thought....
The hand played out exactly how I planed. That deep in a tourney you rarely get more the one caller with a 3x BB bet. Blinds are getting very big.
I was rubbing my hands when he went allin.
80% of the time I should win that.
Next time 
Steve
I agree with everybody to a point. A coin flip at that point is maybe not the best move, because you could be easily be caught between an AK and a 99 (or any other pocket pair) and be fighting against all kind of outs. I dont like to play pp against multiple opponents (even if they are AA) for my whole stack pre-flop. So I fold in situations like that.
That being said, aggression is never a bad thing.
any ace, no matter what the kicker is always scary when going against a pocket pair, it always seems to hit. such a shame.
By the time you get to that point in the tourney you've obviously invested a great deal of time into the tourney. Since each advancement begins to create a larger payout I see engaging your opponents kind of like marriage. "Pick your battles" even if you've got a lot of ammo.
Fold
1) you got one guy all in versus another player giving you a chance to move up without doing anything.
2) QQ in this spot and considering the above is not good to call. QQ would be good to PUSH if the other guy didnt do it first. You got 2 huge bets in front of you. You are likely behind already and if not, any A or K on the board buries you. There is too much time left in the tourny. plenty of time to accumulate chips. QQ is not good to CALL with. The biggest mistake i see people do is not knowing the difference between calling and raising with a given hand. example, you can push with AQ in a lot of situations but can rarely call all your chips with it.
wow...
there've been some good arguments laid out above with regard to folding, it does definitely all depend on the range that you assign the guy who's shipped it in. Looking back i think ICM does make this a fold quite a lot.
but there've also been some examples of bad logic from those suggesting that you fold. For example:
"This is not a turbo sng game, you have plenty of time to keep building the stack without risking ALL your chips on bit better then a flip."
70/30 is a lot better than a flip, actually.
"you got one guy all in versus another player giving you a chance to move up without doing anything."
Your goal is to maximise your expected value, not to outlast players and "move up without doing anything". MTTs are usually very top heavy, so it makes a lot more sense (and maximises your expected value) to play for the top spots. Sitting there trying to let other people go out is not going to win you a tournament.
Looking back though it's... odd. I was very hasty before; that post was also a long time ago. I guess it highlights how much ive learnt since then. The 200k shove is a massive overbet. Readless i'd probably fold. If youre confident in a read that hes doing that wider than he should be (e.g. AQo wide), then yeah i guess stove it and make a decision.
To nitpick the last poster, QQ is actually often very good to call with. This example is an extreme one with deep stacks and an overbet; but there's plenty of situations deep in tournaments where i'd have no problem calling off all my chips with QQ (or even AQ) at all.
after a very long time to think i know the call was ok. the only hand he overbets that way is small pairs, AQs or AK, and im a good favorite over even that. plus im way ahead of all the small pp he was more likly pushing. hes not going to do that with kk or AA.
and saying you would fold to move up means you should fold AA if someone shoves in because they might hit trips on flop or have 10js and be 30/70.
he made a bad move i picked him off and he got lucky.
Everyone who says he should fold are not well informed. Dont listen to them. If you dont snap call here then there is something wrong with your game. These people are incorrectly applying small ball strategies. No decent player would ever think of folding here. This hand is a perfect example of why poker is so profitable. Most players outthink themselves and this is exactly what everyone is doing here.
That would be an easy call for me bcuz most of the time when a short stack raises and a big stack shoves, he knows ur deep so you will have to have a really big hand to call right? Seeing that when he pushes, most if the time its to isolate the little guy or win it right there, so i would put him on either AK AQ or a pair of 10's or less.. if he has AK well its a flip but if its not, then its definately not AA or KK cuz like u said thats not a possibility.. and if it isnt AK you're in pretty good shape, which you were.. But you know bad beats happen.. but u made the right play so good job..
you expect to be way ahead in most scenarios probably 80% of the time so push/call here.
actually its closer to 80/20 AA vs JTs.
This really isn't a call unless youve got a solid read. It doesn't help that your post is horribly vague, "person with a shortstack raises but enough to get away" - how short? How much did he raise?
"Blinds are small, something like 600/1200"?? We need to know the blinds exactly in order to make a decision here. Was it actually 600/1200, as that's ridiculous if it is. M > 100 and youre stacking off preflop there.. terrible. It seems like blinds shouldve been a lot higher, especially this deep into a classic donkament structure. There were also no doubt antes which youve just neglected to mention.
Payout structure is also key in situations like this. As a very generic spot it seems like a fold but there are so many unmentioned factors that it's impossible to say.
Alex this is a call. Its pretty easy actually. Against a normal range this is an insta shove. Even against a relatively tight range this is still a call.
You realise that you're playing with an M of around 100, with far better and less risky spots available, right? Don't get me wrong, i'm all for getting it in good, but you have to realise even plays that are +chipEV can be -$EV depending on the scenario.
Deep in donkaments this is especially the case where the payscale is steep. Going out here could get some meaningless cash of $20; where avoiding a marginal spot for all your chips and instead relying on solid smallball strategies (as long as your stack remains large) will continue to build your lead in a far less risky way.
You're showing a complete lack of understanding of the complexity and nuances of tournament play by saying "this is an easy call". The fact that your ONLY consideration is "ranges" only confirms this. Sure, if I'm 100 BBs deep in a cash game, vs a standard tight range im normally priced in to stack off with QQ (especially given likely pot odds of the pot being 3/4bet before the money goes in). Here, your pot odds are ~1:1 (actually a little better due to blinds/utg raiser). So your 47% equity vs AK,JJ+ would make this a call if direct equity were the only consideration. But it is not - far from it.
Here's a situation to consider. You're in a satellite tournament, top 4 places get through to X tournament, or the next round, whatever. There are five players left and you're sitting on 8,000 chips. Someone else has 10,000 and the other 3 players all have 1000 chips each. The 10,000 chip player moves all in, and you have AA. I mean, ive not calculated this or anything, but situations like this you shouldnt even look at your cards. AA > his range, yes. But the probability of AA being sucked out on is greater than the probability than all the shortstacks making a comeback and eventually knocking you out. His hole cards could be face up as 72o and you would still fold. It's just maths, dude.
You cant make a comparison to a satellite tournament. That is foolish. And the fact that you brought it up proves that YOU, not me, lacks the understanding of the complexity and nuances of tournament play. Its silly to call this a marginal spot. You are the one who is not seeing the whole picture. All you see is that you are very deep and shouldnt risk your tournament. But you fail to see the hand as it is. You dont seem to understand the mindset of other players and that makes you a level 1 thinker. All you seem to care about is your hand. And because it isnt AA then you consider it marginal. Very poor decision making on your part.
With a very reasonable range of TT+, AQ+ this is an insta call. And based on the extreme play the villain took I would lean heavy on the fact that he has a hand like AK or a smaller pair then he would have AA or KK. I would find it highly unlikely that villain has AA or KK but it is still a possibility so I keep it in the range.
And running it through ICM this is a call based on the range given. Even using your range of JJ+, AK its still a call based on ICM.
If you fold here you are a nit and easily exploitable. You clearly dont understand what marginal is and need to stop incorrectly applying small ball strategy as it is clearly hurting your game.
Do you even know what ICM is? "Running it through ICM" - care to explain what youre doing here? Because obtaining an equity calculation through pokerstove is not "running it through ICM", it's not even considering ICM.
My point about satellites was an extreme example aimed to explain my point - clearly something that you missed. With your stack you have a clear edge over the field that you're giving up by committing all of your stack to one hand. Calling vs an assumed range of TT+, AQ+ you are giving yourself 55% equity of doubling up. Yet your edge over the field with a stack this huge is easily 80% or more. What I am saying is that yes, this is a +chipEV play, but you are giving up your edge over the field to take a 55% spot - this is why I say it is a marginal call; not because I am a nit, not because your holding isnt aces, or whatever other accusations/insults you want to throw my way.
How am i incorrectly applying small ball strategy? This is the exact scenario where it should be applied. You're sitting on a monstrous stack, which makes it easy for you to pick your battles. Why clash with the bigstack over a 55% spot when you can easily accumulate chips in 80%+ spots vs shorter stacks (which also puts less of your stack at risk)?
I feel I should respond to the attacks that you're making on me by calling me a "nit". Trust me, i've got no problem risking my tournament life. If i'm sitting on a small or even middling stack, if the blinds or spot is right im happy to get it in because i want a shot at the win. Here, however, the situation is incredibly extreme and you are ignoring that fact. Being a nit would be folding to the money, or not taking on the short stacks in +EV spots, tightening up, etc. I'm not suggesting any of that. In fact, if the other bigstack is as aware of the scenario as you are, you should probably widen your range when first in because you can isolate the short stacks so much easier. Of course you can't just sit back and say "well, ive got 200k, this should see me through for a long time". You have to still carry on accumulating chips. Being selective about that is not nitty, it is the intelligent and prudent way to play.
If you read nothing else, or choose to ignore all of the above over your classic formula-book approach of "it's +EV, it must be right", then at least read the following:
A play that earns you chips in the long term (+chipEV) can lose you money in the long term (-$EV). Let's take this spot as an example.
There are 63 players left. For the purposes of trying to get this point through to you, the situation has to be simplified.
Scenario 1:
You take this spot, and 45% of the time you finish 63rd (negligible cash given the structures of these things). The other 55% of the time, you chip up to 400k and are absolutely raping the tournament. That said, you're still not guaranteed 1st place, but your probability of hitting 1st place increases. Let's assume that you come at least 4th playing this way.
So to sum up it's (45% * 63rd) + (55% * 4th+)
Scenario 2:
With your stack you continue to accumulate chips by picking your battles well, getting it in good for smaller portions of your stack and with a bigger edge. It's fair to assume that given this model you'll still final table 95% of the time, because it would take something horrific with the other bigstack to seriously cripple you. Sure, you might hit the final table with less than you may have done in scenario 1, but you're hardly going to end up on the final table as a short stack, so it's still all to play for. There's probably a good 50% chance of you still hitting top 4 or better, just like before, but the other 45% of the time you're hitting other final table finishes for more overall net profit.
So to sum up this way is (5% * effective 63rd) + (45% * 9th-4th) + (50% * 4th+)
Yes, it's simplified, but this is in principle what ICM is. ICM tries to value the chips that you have in terms of $ based on the prize structure. You can throw your pokerstove ranges at me all you like; i'm aware of pokerstove, i'm aware that this is a +chipEV play practically no matter what range you assign the villain. I'm not ignoring that, i'm taking it into account and putting forward a valid argument why this is still not a call in spite of that result.
Now go ahead and post one more time telling me how much of an exploitable nit i am, i could sure do with a laugh.
You are incorrectly applying ICM. You're 2 scenarios are crazy. Scenario 1 is too simplified but actually proves my point.
Scenario 2 proves why you dont seem to understand ICM or small ball strategy. You somehow think that your 200k guarantees you a 95% chance of making the final table. Simplified or not, it is just a horrible way of trying to prove you are right and, in fact, all it does is show the crazy lengths you will go to be right. I could skew the numbers however I would like too, but that would be stupid. Its just plain silly.
You can slander me all you like. You started it. I reciprocated. Enough said. You are clearly wrong and thats fine with me. Thats how I make money. From others mistakes.
Im done arguing with you. Its no use. I give a rational explanation and retort with crazy numbers you could only have found on some fantasy island. Good luck to you in the future and I hope you win. Remember, you dont have to be the best. You just have to be better than the worst player at your table.
I obviously have to over-simplify, though, because of how incomplete the information is. I highly doubt the information given by the OP is in any way accurate. He claims that this is deep into a 2000-3000 man tournament, and yet with an M of 100 he's only sitting 10th/63. That's practically impossible in any online tournament, especially those with thousands of entrants as blind structures are normally fast.
I don't think the 200k would get him a 95% final table rate; there are far too many variables. I was simply showing that assuming that to be the case, ICM would be very in favour of folding here. Clearly the numbers are not clear-cut. If blinds/stacks were as stated then the OP is very likely to be 2nd/63 (behind only the guy who has him covered), as 10 people with that high an M or above is just inconceivable.
If we assume blinds are higher, something more realistic like 4000/8000 w/antes, then yes its a trivial call. But to just outline a scenario before we put this to rest:
UTG: 40,000
Him: 250,000
MP1: 24,000
MP2: 10,000
Hi-Jack: 50,000
Cutoff: 2,500
You: 200,000
SB: 32,000
BB: 12,000
^Let's say those are the stacks. You're coming 2nd/63; and average stack is 60,000 chips.
Your stack is ~3x average and you're coming 2nd. Your table is very advantageous to you - clearly at this sort of table your objective is to play small ball poker. You want to pick off the small stacks (e.g. cutoff, MP2) and use your stack to bully the slightly larger stacks (e.g. HJ and UTG), stealing blinds and taking down many small pots. I do not see what part of this strategy would be "hurting your game" at this point in a tournament.
So given these stacks, and this more complete information, here's an example payout structure:
1st: $1800
2nd: $1300
3rd: $950
4th: $650
5th: $480
6th: $370
7th: $260
8th: $140
9th: $90
10th-12th: $70
13th-15th: $50
16th-18th: $34
19th-27th: $28
28th-36th: $25
37th-45th: $23
46th-54th: $21
55th-63rd: $20
Pretty standard pay-scale that i just stole from a pokerstars tournament thats running right now (TID: 247204132, if you're interested).
Now, given all this information, do you still call? Let's say utg opens to 3000, and the 250,000 stack pushes all in. It folds to you on the button with QQ.
Note that I'm not trying to cause an argument here; nor do i intend offense. Im simply interested in this debate and am trying to propose a theoretical situation. Surely you can't think that, in this scenario, QQ would be an "easy insta-call"? There are a lot of factors to consider besides your equity vs the villain's range.
Based on the fact that we are now 2nd in chips then I would call. Its not an insta call as it once was, but i just cant seem to see how villain would have AA/KK here. His range is just as wide but I would say that 80% of the time he has AQ+, TT, JJ, QQ and the other 20% he has AA/KK. I cant see myself folding given that info. I am very much taking into account my stack size and my M and I still dont see how I can fold given the situation. In my experience (you may see it differently), the villain would almost never have me dominated and Im very much willing to risk the 20% of the time that he would. I know these are guesses but op has not given any info to suggest that villain is uber tight and only push with the tightest range. Therefore Im treating villain as a normal spewy player in the low to mid mtts. Folding here is not small ball. Its a poor decision.
Now this shouldnt have gotten personal and I apologize, but your post came off very arrogant and put downish. I took it as such and replied. This is not at all a normal situation and agree its need for debate. I appreciate the discussion from a clearly different perspective. I hope we can continue in a peaceful manner.
Your in 10th with a lot of chips. Why settle for risking yourself? There are many small chip count that people will throw in because the blinds are raising. You had no reason to rush with QQ in that position.