hi there,
just wanted to get some opinions on poker tools – the only one I have used is the sharkscope hud and use this simply to know if im playing a good player or not.
I was told when I first started playing not to look into things like icm calculaters, pokerstove etc. because I would learn all of this through experience at the tables anyway. So that’s what I’ve done, played lots of games using experience and simple math’s to make my decisions.
But it seems that every post on this site always involves ICM this and +/- EV that, or it seems to me that simple situation at the tables get turned into huge mathematical equations to see what a player should have done or not in a certain spot. I just don’t see why things should get so complicated.
So really the question is are these tools a must or can you be just as profitable without them?
And do you think all of the pros use these?
I hear what you say, but Doyle started playing years ago and could not multi table as we now can online, so that statement does not make sense because 30 years playing 1 table live does not give the same experience as 30 years playing online.
This is true, but when Doyle wasnt playing he was sitting in motel rooms with a deck of cards playing out hands over and over again trying to figure out statistics and odds. My point was that he had to do everything the hard way. You and I have an ability to use advanced tools to figure out what it took Doyle years to.
Not using tools would be like refusing to use a computer because a typewriter works just fine.
ok, points taken.
but he may not choose to do that if he could just start up a new game. i mean would he be a better player if he could use the tools rather than just playing a larger concentrated volume?
but he may not choose to do that if he could just start up a new game. i mean would he be a better player if he could use the tools rather than just playing a larger concentrated volume?
I would say yes. Im sure you run into players who have been playing for years who are just terrible players right? They have played large volumes of hands, yet they still make the wrong mistakes. Why? Because human beings are great at denial. They will refuse to accept that they are playing poorly. Rather, they would just chalk it up as bad luck and never improve.
Poker is no different than any other endeavor. People who are good at it put a lot of work into it. Everyone else thinks you have to be born with the skills to play, because they are too lazy to really work to be better.
hi imamackem,
i just started to play with pokertracker some weeks ago and imo there is just one possible answer. I´ve been a slightly winning player doing it the hard way. Though i had a massive downswing recantly i am absolutely sure that my long term results greatly benefit from using pokertracker. The more tables u play simultanously the more u obv benefit.
I always tried to label my opponents the old tag, lag.. way, which is a pretty rough estimate, and it often worked my way. But u can´t really do that for every player if u multitable, perhaps u know the regs after some time.
A good example is the 3bet% of ur opponents, which is a really crucial point in the endgame. instead of having a vage imagination like "i never seen him 3bet" (how sure can u be?) or "he does that pretty often" u see if he has zero, 2, 4, 6 or eleven percent, a information u can translate into ranges and even bluffing-probability way better. Poker is a game of small edges and u exploit them way better with better information.
This is just one point on one statistics, and there are many situations i got so much more confidence in my decisions that i kind of panic when my hud isn´t there for a moment. Each of the tools mentioned requires some work and tracker cost some money but both investions pay off massively.
My point is not that u learn the game quicker, i just think u waste lots of money in the long term. Do online-pros use tracker? i don´t think u become online-pro without. And if becoming online-pro without was possible, would u take the disadvantage against players as good as u having better data for a long time? Who can say he beats "armed" opponents (the really good ones on ur limit) on the long run by pure skill? I can´t, and if u can: congrats. U would crush them with equal arms.
Watch pimpinDonks 12-tabling mtt-sngs- video and u get some ideas.
I am pretty confident in my push/fold play, so i don´t use ICM calc´s very often, in fact i feel i should use them more. when i use them from time to time, there are two possible effects: confidence in my decisions grows (which is pretty important for me back at the tables cos i tend to tilt the unusual way sometimes resulting in too many folds) or i have a chance to identify tendencies i have no chance to realize at the tables. There are more factors than pure ICM for good/push fold decisions, but u adjust the single most important factor by just sometimes doing a quizz with random situations. U can simulate ur favourite tourneys bubble and get more than a feeling how to act. U can even use ur Pokertracker data to simulate ur most common opponents and their behaviour by assigning ranges. How can u think it is not an advantage to do so? I´m sure u don`t.
Dont get me wrong: U obv are a winning player, and i respect that. But if ur approach is getting the best winrate u can it´s just stupid not to use these extremely helpful tools. leave ur ego at the door and give it a try, in just some time u´ll fully agree.
greeetings Frank(´s sick)
edit: ur stats are really impressing. but i´ll get u dooooonk^^
^ "leave your ego at the door" - homage to "The Poker Mindset" i think?
But yeah, basically what ^he said. Probably not necessary, but then perhaps its not "necessary" to employ advanced bluffing strategies at a table if you can profit by playing tight. Does this mean you dont learn these strategies? Of course not, because by learning them yuor edge increases and you make more money. Same applies to this.
Thanks for your comments and I hope they keep coming.
So a couple of questions -
1.I think my push/call ranges are quite good and I think I remember watching one of pimpindonks videos where he calculated different situations and from what I remember I done well in this, making the correct play a high percentage of the time.
So is there any sort of test you can take to see how good you really are anywhere?
2. I’m also interested in the 3bet% - how does this work? is it worked out over a large volume of games?
And if so, I don’t see how this will help in the late stages of a game -in the games I play I like to mix my style up but play generally tag. - so in the early/middle stages of a game I will normally only 3bet with good hands, so I would think that my 3bet% would be low (I think). But as I get to the bubble and ft i tend to 3bet lighter and more, especially against a late position raise - sometimes with air.
So overall my 3bet% would be low - but this % can not be applied to the late stages of the game.
Also if you play turbo games and hu your 3bet% would surely increase massively too?
hi imamackem,
first i have to say i feel kind of honored to answer u questions since u obv are a great player. hard to believe u got there without tools. how long do u play poker? u must be some sick miracle genious.
1. ur ranges are obv. not that bad. u wouldn´t need a tool to learn much but even the best players can benefit by reviewing hands they had to think about.
U can test ur abilities from time to time - eg. sng wizard has a quiz mode which can be configurated concerning price structur, chip-distribution, ur own stacksize and more (u also find freeware which does pretty much the same) - and u see how well u really do. Of course there are some things u cant improve by using icm-tools u need and obv. master like psychology and table dynamics to make good decisions. Is there any specific situation u don´t feel as comfortable in as u usually do? Are there opponents you consider very strong forcing u making close decisions? If there are, reviewing them and getting a mathematical guideline should at least slightly improve ur roi which adds to serious money. I´m sure ur opponents review hands with u, i would if i played ur stakes.
my practical advice is to download the sng-wizard 15-day free trial, play some tourneys and just have look. by playing around a little u can quickly judge if there is a sense for ur in using it. At least give it a try if u ever experience a serious downswing.
2. gonna split that up
volume: the higher the volume the better the data of course. to give u a feel there are 563 18 ppl 16$ turbos in my database. this means i have more than thousand hands on most regs. some data is pretty reliable after maybe 50 hands like the vpip. others require bigger like the fold-to-cbet cos this scenario appears less often. my data is pretty good for most situations now.
This is the reason why the first data on ur hud should be the number of hands u have on ur opponent, u always have to know how significant the data is.
3bet%: if u got that wrong: i talked about facing a 3bet. if ur opponent 3bets 6% or 8% of the time is hard to figure out by watching him but can easily make the difference to make a call correct.
how can u rely on the data when behavior changes during a tourney?
Just like u always do, u have to factor that in and u shouldn´t stop to watch ur opponents. some limp often in the early game and suddenly tighten up at higher blinds. if u minraise a rock in the big blinds and he 3bets all in his last 3BB u wont give him aces just because he only did this with aces before. u constantly have to estimate well given ur overall knowledge about a player how he would act in this new situation. but u have better knowledge.
The database size i have allows me analyzing my most common opponents in different blind levels. it needs some time to have sufficient data for doing so. But if u really grind a limit it takes u just some weeks. u even have the possibility to see data for the current blind level only on ur hud. I personally dont use that option, i prefer having good overall data on the non- regulars than havin specific data on the dudes i know pretty good anyway.
Diff. game types: this is obv. true, but easy to solve: i recommend setting up a database for every type of game u play.U could also filter the data but small databases perform better. I currently have a database for stt´s, 18plr and 45 plr tourneys. It takes seconds to create one. I wouldn´t care that much if turbo or not, but i would split that for personal reference too.
Again, just have a look. install trial version, import some hands and play around. theres hundreds of stats, some u will never use. it takes some work till u benefit. if u got some credits left watch pimpins 12 table vid where he shows how he uses the hud-data in decision-making to get a better practical idea.
hope that´ll help. feel free to ask more or contact me.
franxic
[quote=franxic]hi imamackem,
first i have to say i feel kind of honored to answer u questions since u obv are a great player. hard to believe u got there without tools. how long do u play poker? u must be some sick miracle genious.
Thanks for your kind comments.
I will have to get time to look into that but it does sound a bit complicated for me 
To answer your question i have played poker for 2yrs and 7months exactly.
I find I tend to play better WITHOUT the use of a hud.
people can rely on statistics too much if you ask me!
^This is a valid point.
Whilst on face value tools are useful you must be careful how you use them. Its all too easy to allow them to "replace" facets of your game; relying on 3bet % rather than remembering hands your opponent has shown down in 3bet pots, for example. Its quite easy to go on auto pilot with a HUD.
Also sample size is important. Its easy to assume someone's a nit by glancing at a HUD and seeing they're at 0/0 - but if this is over 5 hands it really means nothing at all.
its also quite amusing how people rely on Aggression Factor, even though its such a flawed statistic.
I reccommend using Aggression Freq(%) instead. for more info, google is your friend.
I use the HUD here, and do pretty well. I rely on gut alot, as I have seena bunch of hands. Anyway, I love what has been saidand just wonder whatand where I go to look at this software.
Thanks
Ok. Lets see if I can explain this.
Do you need tools to suceed? Absolutely not. Doyle never used tools. Barry never used tools. Layne Flack, Scotty Ngyuen, Phil Hellmuth never used tools.
But they clearly think on a level that is much higher than you or me. They have years of experience and break the game down better than 99.9999999999999999999% of all players.
Now that doesnt mean you dont need tools. People like Phil Galfond, Tom Dwan, Brian Hastings, Brian Townsend... all have acelerated that process with tools. They all play at the nosebleed sections because they have used tools to learn in a few years what it took decades for the above players to learn.
So basically, you can go the route of Doyle and you will be a very very good player in 30 years. Or you can go the route of Tom Dwan and play for millions in just 3 years. Its your choice. To me the answer is pretty obvious.