three of us left....should i have pushed?
hi all....
to cut a long story short,played at the casino tonight.....got to final table and three of us left.....had 5 bb and i pushed on the button with k6 hearts......now am not sure if this was a correct play...whether k6 is strong enough ....
any thoughts...?
Comments
ok stack sizes...were seat 1 sb 75k....seat 2 bb 45k......me 15 k blinds at 1.5k/3k.......was 135k chips in play.....
also havin thought about it...id have to say it was a bad play....is less that catorgory 8 hand,and u have to have a cat8 hand to push really......
good shove...if you can get in with 2 live cards at that point u gotta go, having a suited King is even better...i'm guessing you ran into KQ or something that left you dominated, but that's just the breaks...you made the right play in my opinion
"category 8 hand" rofl? What the hell book have you been reading?
With 5bbs I'd be pushing K6s, and for the record far wider even than that. You really need to sort out your attitude with regards to ROT because its really going to hinder your progress and ability to learn. You have to be able to distinguish between bad luck and bad play.
hi guys.....
I recommend learning these categories by heart so you don't have to refer to the list when playing.
Category 1: AA, KK
Category 2: QQ, AKs, AKo, JJ
Category 3: AQs, AQo, TT, 99
Category 4: AJs, KQs, 88, 77
Category 5: AJo, ATs, ATo, KQo, KJs, 66, 55
Category 6: A9s-A2s, KJo, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, 44, 33, 22
Category 7: A9-A2, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s
Category 8: K9s, K9o, K8s, K8o, Q9s, Q8s, J9s, T8s, T9o, 97s, 98o, 86s, 87o, 75s, 76o, 64s
correct hands to play
Scenario Position More than 10BB 10BB to 5BB Less than 5BB
Everyone Folds to you Small blind or Button Category 7 Category 8 Category 8
1 or 2 seats off the Button Category 6 Category 7 Category 8
Earlier Position Category 5 Category 6 Category 7
One or more limpers Any Position Category 4 Category 5 Category 6
Someone Raises Any Position Category 3 Category 4 Category 5
Raise sizes pre-flop
A standard raise would be 4BB
You should push all-in whenever your stack is 12BB or smaller
Never just call unless the other player is all-in
Never limp
Pot Odds decisions
If you raise (without going all-in) and someone re-raises, your decision to call should be based on pot odds.
If you're getting 2.5:1 or better, you should call with anything.
If you're getting 2:1 or better, only call with a category 5 hand or better.
If you're getting 1.5:1 or better, only call with a category 4 hand or better.
If you're getting worse than 1.5:1, only call with a category 3 hand or better.
Post-flop play during the middle stages
You should play aggressive post-flop if the chips aren't all-in yet. If you bet first, or the action is checked round to you, your standard bet size should be 2/3 of the pot. If your stack is under 1.5 times the pot, move all-in instead.
When you get a free play in the big blind, in a multi-way pot
Bet or raise with medium made hands, strong draws or better. Go all-in on the turn or if you get raised - folding is almost always a mistake in this position. You should also only check/call with medium draws when you are getting a good price to improve on later streets, and when calling will cost no more than 20% of your stack.
If you improve to a medium made hand or better on later streets, play for your entire stack.
Check/fold on all streets if your hand does not improve.
When you are the pre-flop raiser heads-up:
You will usually be committed with medium made hands, a strong draw or better. Therefore you should bet, usually all-in. If someone bets before you, call an all-in or raise all-in by yourself.
Bet first or when checked to you with weak made hands, weak draws or better.
If you raise and get called, push all-in on the turn even if you don't improve a strong draw, medium made hand or better, and check behind or check/fold with everything else.
If your draw or made hand improves, push all-in on any street.
If you get raised, follow the pot odds advice above to determine the odds of a non all in raise.
With odds of 2.5:1 or better, call/raise with weak made hands or better, and medium draws or better.
With odds of 3.5:1 or better, call with weak made hands or better, and weak draws or better.
As the pre-flop raiser when multi-way:
With medium made hands, strong draws or better, you are committed and should bet, usually all-in. If some one bets before you, call an all-in or raise all-in yourself.
If you have a medium draw, you should only check/call when you're getting good odds, and the call costs no more than 20% of your stack
With all other hands, consider checking and folding to any bets on other streets, unless you get good odds.
If you improve on later streets to a medium strength hand or better, you are committed and should bet, usually all-in. If someone bets before you, call an all-in or raise all-in by yourself.
Summary: Play aggressive poker
The fewer chips you have, the more aggressive you should be
Don't let yourself get blinded out
If you raise a third of your stack, you are pot-committed
Going all-in means your opponents can't raise you off of a pot
Be aware of your opponents stack sizes
Make pre-flop decisions depending on your position, the action before you and your stack size
Call a re-raise pre-flop according to your hand and your pot odds
A standard pre-flop raise should be 4BB
Never just limp or call pre-flop, unless the other player is all-in
Play post-flop according to the hand strength category advice we discussed earlier, the size of the pot and number of opponents
compiled from pokerstars poker school.....
this is a great base to help you play better poker...
regards
toby
would u rather ship K6s there or 65s ? just to let you know the answer is K6.
65 is better according to your cat thing but i doubt anybody here would rather ship 65 compared to K6, because you are going to get called almost all the time by one of the blinds. they will be calling with a ridiculous range. your K6 is going to be ahead a decent amount of the time while your 65s, while a great drawing hand is not going to hold up as well as your K hi.
i didn't read your long post because i didn't have to. i have been in that situation more than i could even think about. This is an easy shove. any other play is just horrible. i'll just say, a fold here is just BAD.
This as an absolute shove.I put your numbers into SNG Power Tools and gave the SB and BB calling ranges of 25%. In this situation you should be shoving with 72.2% of your hands or:22+,A2+,K2+,Q4+,Q2s+,J7+,J2s+,T6+,T2s+,96+,92s+,86+,82s+,75+,73s+,65,62s+,54,52s+,42s+.If we move their calling ranges up to 40% you should still shove 31.8% or:22+,A2+,K7+,K3s+,QT+,Q9s+,JTs. Also,if you are getting 2-1 on a call you need a very good excuse not to make the call.For example,lets say you are in a standard 9 man SNG.Blinds are 100-200.You are in the BB with 2500c. UTG-6500c folds. Button-700c shoves.SB-3500c folds. You have to call 500 to win 1000. Don't worry about any hand charts.You should call here with any two cards.
Also,I would highly recommend reading Sit'n Go Strategy by Collin Moshman and using tools like SNG Wizard and SNG Power Tools. Don't forget that the real money in sng's is made around the bubble.Hope that some of this helps.
Anything can happen in that game. If you are thinking that your was too close to win that game then the other three could have been much closer to won that game then you.
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As far as live cards go in that situation i dont like pushing with any face or ace. Because if you do get called odds are good that your getting called with an ace or face and one of your cards are dead. So if you pushing on a weaker hand i would much prefer not to have a King or ace.
ok, must have misunderstood. on the button with 5 bigs vs 2 guys with 12-17 or whatever they had i would be shipping a ton. i would ship any A, any K, all suited connectors or semi connectors except 23 24 25 or close to that, all connectors 45 and up, maybe 56 and not 45. i'd probably ship any Q then with cards under that they would have to start getting close to being connected.
the point is (to op) you need to be shoving light here. they will call you with 10 9 and 87 and shit so shoving J6s is going to be beating them when they call once in awhile. not only will you be ahead shoving K2o a decent amount but you will also get them to fold a decent amount of the time aswell which is why shoving 87 is fine because you will get them to fold enough to make it worth it when they call with A2 or even AK. you are like 45% and 38% in these situations which isn't even bad so you should be able to tell that if they fold a couple times when you shove that its ok if you get called and they have an overcard or 2.
Pharreal do you play any sites besides PS? I posted something earlier but havnt got a response yet. Im looking for another site to play on. I do well at ps but want another site a little smaller to play on also. Was jus wondering if anyone knew any for US players and if they do how good are there payouts as far as time goes.
everybody hates to say it but UB/AP. they have good bonuses, make sure you sign up for rakeback before making an account.
otherwise maybe cake but i think i heard they have been kinda going downhill lately.
people will hate it that i say it but i would go to UB.
you ran into Q10. did you know that K2o is better than Q10 suited?
how do you not understand that K2 is a good shove. you will get them to fold an ok amount of the time, another good percent they will call and you will be ahead, the rest of the time they will call and you will be beat but even if your K3 runs into AJ you still are going to win 35% of the time.
if you want to get better you should listen to the players here that have played a long time and make money, if you don't listen and don't try and learn what some of us are saying you will not get better.
oh, and to your question. do i play for money or to win the game?
in most cases......both. i play to win, but my reason for playing to win is because that is where the money is.
there are times where i will play to second place though....for example, this happened 3 weeks ago. 6 person with 1500 starting chips. we're 3 handed and i'm sitting on 800 while another player has 700 and is sitting out. i just folded every hand until i made money and had 100 chips left. it was the smart play rather than trying to double a few times against a guy just to have a shot at winning. smarter to get the guaranteed cash there.
This single post has given me much amusement, thank you:
hi guys.....
I recommend learning these categories by heart so you don't have to refer to the list when playing.
Category 1: AA, KK
Category 2: QQ, AKs, AKo, JJ
Category 3: AQs, AQo, TT, 99
Category 4: AJs, KQs, 88, 77
Category 5: AJo, ATs, ATo, KQo, KJs, 66, 55
Category 6: A9s-A2s, KJo, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, 44, 33, 22
Category 7: A9-A2, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s
Category 8: K9s, K9o, K8s, K8o, Q9s, Q8s, J9s, T8s, T9o, 97s, 98o, 86s, 87o, 75s, 76o, 64s
correct hands to play
Scenario Position More than 10BB 10BB to 5BB Less than 5BB
Everyone Folds to you Small blind or Button Category 7 Category 8 Category 8
1 or 2 seats off the Button Category 6 Category 7 Category 8
Earlier Position Category 5 Category 6 Category 7
One or more limpers Any Position Category 4 Category 5 Category 6
Someone Raises Any Position Category 3 Category 4 Category 5
Ok, so you tried to paste a table here and it went wrong. Having this sort of recipe book approach to poker is bad on so so many levels. Also I hate referring to stack depth in terms of BBs when we're talking tournaments where there are more often than not antes to consider as well. You do know that vs the right opponents it can be correct to shove ATC right? You're giving no consideration to how your opponents are playing. What if a really straightforward ABC player (playing by your "rules") limps in preflop, are you still going to treat this as weakness and shove your category 5 or w/e hand? What if everyone behind you are nits, are you still going to fold that category 5 hand?
Raise sizes pre-flop
A standard raise would be 4BB
You should push all-in whenever your stack is 12BB or smaller
Never just call unless the other player is all-in
Never limp
Pot Odds decisions
If you raise (without going all-in) and someone re-raises, your decision to call should be based on pot odds.
If you're getting 2.5:1 or better, you should call with anything.
If you're getting 2:1 or better, only call with a category 5 hand or better. So with 2:1 on a call you're going to fold A9s? 2:1 means you need 33% equity... again it totally depends how wide your opponent is shoving. If they're short enough that you have 2:1, then they should probably be shoving wide. Perhaps theyre shoving ATC, maybe only the top 50%, but to fold A9s would be ludicrous. Even if theyre only shoving the top 8% of their hands:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
623,278,656 games 0.764 secs 815,809,759 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.070% 34.68% 01.39% 209030132 8372756.00 { A9s }
Hand 1: 63.930% 62.54% 01.39% 376955364 8372756.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+ }
You have the right price on a call. Folding is absurd. And there's all the other factors to consider - what position did they shove from? How aware of stack depths are they? /rant
If you're getting 1.5:1 or better, only call with a category 4 hand or better.
If you're getting worse than 1.5:1, only call with a category 3 hand or better.
the other thing you're not considering here is your own stack. Sometimes a "correct" call can become bad if the damage to your stack will be too significant, especially on the bubble.
Post-flop play during the middle stages
You should play aggressive post-flop if the chips aren't all-in yet. If you bet first, or the action is checked round to you, your standard bet size should be 2/3 of the pot. If your stack is under 1.5 times the pot, move all-in instead.
When you get a free play in the big blind, in a multi-way pot
Bet or raise with medium made hands, strong draws or better. Go all-in on the turn or if you get raised - folding is almost always a mistake in this position. You should also only check/call with medium draws when you are getting a good price to improve on later streets, and when calling will cost no more than 20% of your stack.
If you improve to a medium made hand or better on later streets, play for your entire stack.
Check/fold on all streets if your hand does not improve.
When you are the pre-flop raiser heads-up:
You will usually be committed with medium made hands, a strong draw or better. Therefore you should bet, usually all-in. If someone bets before you, call an all-in or raise all-in by yourself.
Bet first or when checked to you with weak made hands, weak draws or better.
If you raise and get called, push all-in on the turn even if you don't improve a strong draw, medium made hand or better, and check behind or check/fold with everything else.
If your draw or made hand improves, push all-in on any street.
If you get raised, follow the pot odds advice above to determine the odds of a non all in raise.
With odds of 2.5:1 or better, call/raise with weak made hands or better, and medium draws or better.
With odds of 3.5:1 or better, call with weak made hands or better, and weak draws or better.
As the pre-flop raiser when multi-way:
With medium made hands, strong draws or better, you are committed and should bet, usually all-in. If some one bets before you, call an all-in or raise all-in yourself.
If you have a medium draw, you should only check/call when you're getting good odds, and the call costs no more than 20% of your stack
With all other hands, consider checking and folding to any bets on other streets, unless you get good odds.
If you improve on later streets to a medium strength hand or better, you are committed and should bet, usually all-in. If someone bets before you, call an all-in or raise all-in by yourself.
This is some of the most generic, horrible advice ive ever read. Poker is not a game about general scenarios and "medium made hands" - it is a game of specifics. Bet sizing, opponent tendencies, board texture, precise hands and ranges.
Ive been harsh here, and its probably not a terrible way to play. I mean, playing by this strategy is sure going to beat playing with no clue at all. But poker is so much more complex than this, you really have no idea. If you think this list of generic advice is the be all and end all, then god help you. Also, if you still think this K6s hand is a fold, punch yourself in the nuts. I mean really.
Anything can happen in that game. If you are thinking that your was too close to win that game then the other three could have been much closer to won that game then you.
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what are other stack sizes. from all the info you give me its a perfect ship. i'm assuming everybody is either close to even or two other stacks are bigger than you by a lot.